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PJ: I think it is possible to deal with the superficial hurts, but the deep hurts which one has… K: I want to know how you will deal with them. How will you deal with them? PJ: How does one? K: Go on, ask, find out how you deal with the deep hurts. How does the mind come upon the deep hurts? What is a hurt? PJ: Deep pain. K: Is there a deep hurt? PJ: Yes. K: What do you mean by deep hurt? PJ: When the nature and structure of consciousness undergoes a change... K: What, what? Make it simpler, please. PJ: The really deep hurts are when the very nature of your being is on the edge of the sword because of a crisis. K: Be simple. Don’t you know all these factors? My brother dies, my son dies, or my husband or wife dies. It is a shock. The shock is a kind of hurt. I am asking, ‘Is the hurt very deep, and what do you mean by very deep?’ PJ: I see the conscious responses to it. I see what is being thrown out from the unconscious. K: What is being thrown out? PJ: What is being thrown out is pain. K: Pain, of which you have not been aware before. And the shock reveals the pain. Which is—listen to it carefully—the pain was there, or the cause of pain. PJ: The cause of pain. K: That’s it. The cause of pain was there, of which I was not conscious. The shock comes and makes me aware of that pain. MF: But why can’t you say the shock creates the pain? K: No. I can’t say that. How can the shock create the pain? Pain was there. MF: No, no. K: I’ll show you. Frydman, don’t jump to conclusions, don’t ask questions relevant or irrelevant. My brother is dead; that is absolutely final; I can’t bring him back. The world faces this problem, not just you and I—everybody faces this problem. It is a shock, including all that we have said. That shock is a deep hurt. Was the hurt there before, was the cause of the hurt there before, and has the shock only revealed it? The hurt was there because I had never faced it. I had said I would put all my faith in my brother. I had never faced the sense of loneliness, which is one of the factors of hurt. So before the shock comes, I look at loneliness. Before the shock comes, I know what it means to be alone. Before the shock comes, I go into this question of reliance, dependence, which are all the factors of hurt, the causes of hurt; they are all brought out when the shock comes. So when the shock comes, what happens? I have no hurt. I’m right, this is right. MF: What made you prepare yourself? K: I didn’t prepare, I watched life. I watched the implications of attachment or indifference or of trying to cultivate independence because I must not depend. Dependence causes pain, therefore I cultivate independence, and that may also bring pain. So I watched in myself that dependence of any kind must inevitably bring about deep hurt. I have gone into it, I said, ‘Now finished’. So when the shock comes, the cause of hurt is not; a totally different thing takes place. That’s what I want to get at.
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