你能从外面看到自己吗？

Renowned neuroscientist Dr. David Eagleman and Sadhguru address a question by a member of the audience, each from their unique perspectives.

著名的神经科学家David Eagleman博士和萨古鲁分别从各自独特的角度回答了听众提出的问题。

Thinking outside the box is common to both of them. When renowned neuroscientist Dr. David Eagleman and Sadhguru met in Houston, Texas on April 2015, an inspiring conversation about the intersection between science and mysticism ensued. In this article, they address a question by a member of the audience, each from their unique perspectives.

打破常规思维对他们俩来说都很常见。2015年4月，著名神经科学家大卫·伊格曼(David Eagleman)博士和萨古鲁(Sadhguru)在德克萨斯州休斯顿会面时，一场关于科学与神秘主义交融鼓舞人心的对话随之展开而来。在本文中，他们分别从各自独特的角度回答了一位听众提出的问题。

Q: First, I have a question for David: Have you ever studied someone who has observed himself or herself from outside? And to Sadhguru – are there techniques to achieve that level of human intelligence that you can observe yourself from outside?

问题:首先，我有个问题要问科学家大卫:你有没有研究过一个人从外面观察自己? 萨古鲁有什么技巧可以从外部观察到人类的智力水平吗?

David Eagleman: It depends what exactly you mean by “observing yourself from the outside.” There are experiments with what is called an “out-of-body-illusion.” It is a little complicated to explain the set-up, but it has to do with wearing some video goggles and putting a camera behind you. With your goggles, you can see your own body from behind. Let’s say if someone scratches your back, you can see it through the goggles. You feel it immediately, but you see your own body at a distance.

大卫·伊格尔曼：这取决于你所说的“从外面观察自己”的真正含义。有一些实验叫做“出体幻觉”。解释这个情况有点复杂，但是必须戴一些视频护目镜和把相机放在身后。用你的护目镜，你可以从后面看到你自己的身体。比如说，如果有人挠你的背，你可以透过护目镜看到它。你立刻感觉到，但是你看到你自己的身体在远处。

This allows people to sometimes have a clear experience where they feel they are six feet behind their body. There is a neuroscience group in Europe that was able to induce this illusion even when people were lying down. This gave them the opportunity to stick the test persons into a brain scanner and measure their brain activity while they were having this “out-of-body” experience where they thought they were six feet away from their body.

有时候这会让人们有非常清晰的体验，他们感觉到是六英尺背后的身体。在欧洲有一个神经科学小组即使人们躺着的时候也能诱发这种幻觉。这使他们有机会让被测试者进入大脑扫描仪并测量他们的大脑活动，同时他们正在进行这种“灵魂出窍”的体验，他们认为自己离身体有六英尺远。

However, brain imaging is limited in the sense that we can measure that particular sets of “Christmas lights” light up in the brain when you are having such an “out-of-body” experience; we can describe the neural correlates of subjective experience, but we don’t know yet why they are identical. Science is a little stuck there.

然而，大脑成像在某种意义上是有限的，我们可以测量当你有这种“灵魂出窍”的体验时，大脑中特定的“圣诞灯”会点亮; 我们可以描述神经关联的主观体验，但我们还不知道为什么它们是相同的。科学在这有点卡住了。

Sadhguru: I must tell you my experience of this. I do not subject myself to such indignities anymore, but many years ago, it so happened that I was at some institute in India, and they wanted to measure the gamma waves in my brain. They asked me to meditate. I said, “I don’t know any meditation.” They said, “But you teach meditation to everyone.” I said, “Yes, because people don’t know how to simply sit still, we teach them methods to do so. If you want, I will sit still.”

萨古鲁：我必须告诉你我的经历。我不再这种侮辱了，很多年前，我碰巧在印度的某个研究所，他们想测量我大脑中的伽马波。他们让我冥想。我说：“我不懂打坐。”他们说，“但是你教每个人打坐。”我说，“是的，因为人们不知道如何静坐，所以我们教他们打坐的方法。”如果你愿意，我就安静地坐着。”

Why I am saying this is – all instruments created by human beings are lesser instruments than the human system itself.

我这么说的原因是——人类创造的所有工具都不如人类系统本身。

They placed some 14 electrodes on me, and I simply sat there. After maybe 15 to 20 minutes, they started hitting my knee with some metallic object. I thought, “Okay, part of their experiment,” and continued to sit there. Then they started hitting my ankle bone – a very painful place. I still thought, “Okay, it’s their experiment,” but it became very persistent and extremely painful.

他们在我身上放了14个电极，我就坐在那里。大约15到20分钟后，他们开始用金属物撞击我的膝盖。我想，“好吧，这是他们实验的一部分，”然后继续坐在那里。然后它们开始撞击我的脚踝骨—非常疼。我仍然在想，“好吧，这是他们的实验，”但这变得非常持久，非常痛苦。

I slowly opened my eyes. They were all giving me a weird look. I said, “Did I do something wrong?” They said, “According to our instruments, you are dead.” I said, “That’s a great diagnosis.” Then they said, “You are either dead, or you are brain-dead.” I said, “That’s too insulting. I’ll take the first diagnosis. If you give me a certificate that I am dead – I can live with that. If you give me a certificate that I am brain-dead – that’s not a good thing.”

我慢慢睁开眼睛。他们都用奇怪的眼神看着我。我说，“我做错什么了吗?”他们说、我们所用的器具看你死了。我说，“这是一个很好的诊断。”然后他们说:“你不是死了，就是脑死了。”我说:“那太无礼了。”我会接受第一个诊断。如果你给我一张证明，证明我已经死了—我可以接受。如果你给我一张我脑死亡的证明—那不是一件好事。

Why I am saying this is – all instruments created by human beings are lesser instruments than the human system itself. A telephone can transmit the spoken word over longer distances than a human being can. A bicycle can go faster than we can run; a motorcycle can go even faster; an aircraft can fly. That means in terms of a particular action, they may be better than us. But in terms of sophistication, they are all lesser instruments.

我这么说的原因是—人类创造的所有工具都不如人类系统本身。电话比人能把所讲的话传得更远。自行车比我们跑得快;摩托车可以跑得更快;飞机会飞。这意味着，就具体行动而言，他们可能比我们做得更好。但就精致复杂程度而言，它们都是次要的工具。

They cannot be more sophisticated than a human being, because we cannot create something more sophisticated than ourselves. Therefore, the use of measuring instruments is limited. You can easily fool the brain – there are many techniques in yoga to do this. David was talking to me about how you could trick the mind that a smell becomes a sound, and a sound becomes something else. And even without any scientific gadgets, there are many ways to trick the human mind.

它们不可能比人类更复杂，因为我们无法创造出比我们自己更复杂精致的东西。因此，测量仪器的使用是有限的。你可以很容易地愚弄大脑—瑜伽中有很多技巧可以做到这一点。大卫在跟我说你怎么能骗过大脑让气味变成声音，声音变成别的东西。即使没有任何科学设备，也有很多方法可以欺骗人类的大脑。

The magicians of the world have mastered these tricks. They can pick things out of your pocket without you knowing what is happening to you. That apart, in terms of fundamental sophistication, there is nothing more sophisticated than the human system. This is the gadget, and the only way for you to experience the world.

世界上的魔术师都掌握了这些技巧。他们能从你口袋里掏出东西，而你却不知道发生了什么。除此之外，就基本的复杂性而言，没有什么比人类系统更复杂的了。这是一个小玩意，也是你体验世界的唯一方式。

How You Experience What You Experience

你怎么去体验呢？ 经历到了什么 ？

Let’s look at how you experience the world right now. All of you here can see me. If you were to point out where I am, you would point towards the dais. But you’ve got it all wrong. Light falls upon me, gets reflected, and creates an inverted image in your retina – you know all that. You see me within yourself. You hear me within yourself. Whatever you have seen of the world, you have seen within yourself. Everything that ever happened to you happened only within you.

让我们看看你现在是如何体验这个世界的。在座的各位都能看到我。如果你指出我在哪里，你会指向讲台。但你完全搞错了。光线落在我身上，被反射，在你的视网膜上形成一个倒转的图像—你知道了这一切的发生。你在你的内心看到了我。你听见我在你心中。无论你看到了什么世界，你都看到了你自己。发生在你身上的一切都只发生在你的内心。

To some extent, almost every human being is creating various experiences without external stimuli, all the time, in many different ways. When it goes out of control, we consider it as a mental problem or mental disease.

在某种程度上，几乎每一个人都在没有外界刺激的情况下，以许多不同的方式创造各种各样的体验。当它失去控制时，我们认为它是一个精神问题或精神疾病。

If someone touches your hand, you think you feel their hand, but actually, you only experience the sensations in your own hand. If for example you make someone touch your hand five times, you will observe that subsequently, without anyone touching you, without the person being with you, you can create the same sensation within you. You can either create sensations with external stimuli, or you can internally manufacture whatever you want.

如果有人摸了你的手，你会认为你感觉到了他们的手，但实际上，你只会在自己的手上体验到感觉。例如，如果你让某人摸你的手五次，你会观察到，随后，没有人碰你，没有人和你在一起，你可以在你体内创造同样的感觉。你可以通过外部刺激创造感觉，或者你可以在内部制造任何你想要的东西。

To some extent, almost every human being is creating various experiences without external stimuli, all the time, in many different ways. When it goes out of control, we consider it as a mental problem or mental disease. But everyone is doing this to some extent. While you are in a dream, it is as true as reality. One day, a few years ago, when I walked into Isha Home School, this boy came up to me and asked, “Sadhguru, is life real or is it a dream?” I looked at him – this was an eight-year-old, so you have to tell the truth – and I said, “Life is a dream, but the dream is true.” That’s a fact. The way it is happening within you right now, life is a dream, but the dream is true in your experience. But you can make this dream any way you want.

在某种程度上，几乎每一个人都在没有外界刺激的情况下，以许多不同的方式创造各种各样的体验。当它失去控制时，我们认为它是一个精神问题或精神疾病。但在某种程度上，每个人都在这么做。当你在梦中，它就像现实一样真实。几年前的一天，当我走进Isha的家庭学校时，一个男孩走到我面前，问我:“萨德古鲁，生活是真实的还是梦?”我看着他—这是一个8岁的孩子，所以你必须说实话—我说，“生活是一场梦，但这个梦是真的。”这是事实。现在发生在你内心的事情，生活是一个梦，但梦在你的经历中是真实的。但你可以随心所欲地做这个梦。

You are okay for a joke? On a certain day, a lady went to sleep. In her sleep, she had a dream. In her dream, she saw a hunk of a man standing there, staring at her. He started coming closer and closer. He came so close she could even feel his breath. She trembled – not in fear. Then she asked, “What will you do to me?” The man said, “Well, lady – it’s your dream!” It is your dream – you can make whatever you want out of it. We can make this into a fantastic dream for ourselves and for everyone on the planet. Science and technology have done wonderful things for us to enhance our dreams, but I want the scientists to meditate.

让我开个玩笑吧，有一天，一位女士睡着了。在睡梦中，她做了一个梦。在她的梦里，她看见一个大块头男人站在那里，盯着她看。他开始越来越近。他走得很近，她甚至能感觉到他的呼吸。她颤抖着——不是因为害怕。然后她问:“你会对我做什么?”男人说:“女士，这是你的梦!”“这是你的梦—你可以从中得到你想要的任何东西。”我们可以把它变成一个梦幻般的梦，为我们自己，也为地球上的每一个人。科学技术为我们实现梦想做了很多奇妙的事情，但我希望科学家们能冥想。