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In this conversation, Sadhguru and Dr. Mark Hyman, American physician, scholar, and New York Times best-selling author, discuss various dimensions of health. Here, they look at the state of global and individual health in connection with food choices and commercial interests. 在这次谈话中，萨古鲁与美国内科医生、学者、纽约时报畅销书作家马克·海曼博士讨论了健康的不同维度。在此，他们着眼于全人类以及个人的健康状况与食物选择及商业利益之间的关系。 Dr. Hyman: We have this amazing opportunity to talk about health with Sadhguru. And it is an important question because there is so much dis-ease in the world today. There is spiritual dis-ease; there is physical dis-ease. And we are facing a crisis that I think is disproportionate to what we have ever seen in the evolution of our human species. And it is an important question for me because around the world, we are now facing a chronic disease epidemic that is killing twice as many people as die from infectious disease. We are seeing more than two billion people who are overweight, more than twice as many people go to bed overweight as go to bed hungry. 海曼博士：我们有这样难得的机会与萨古鲁探讨健康问题。健康是一个非常重要的问题，因为当今世界有这么多的疾病，有精神的，也有身体的。我认为，我们面临着人类进化史上前所未有的严重危机。对我来说，这是一个很重要的问题，因为在全世界，我们面临着慢性疾病高发的问题，被慢性病夺去生命的人是因感染性疾病而死亡的人的两倍。我们看到有20多亿人体重超标，带着超重的身躯上床睡觉的人是饿着肚子上床睡觉的人的两倍多。
We are seeing one in two Americans with type 2 diabetes. We are seeing eighty percent of the world’s type 2 diabetics in the developing world. We are seeing a crisis of the way we grow our food, a crisis of the environment, a crisis of our physical and spiritual health. We have a chance to sort of unwrap some of these questions today. And I wanted to first ask you – how is our sort of spiritual dis-ease connected to the physical dis-ease we are seeing for individuals and also globally? 如今在美国，每两个人中就有一个患有2型糖尿病，在全世界患2型糖尿病的人口中，发展中国家占80%。我们正面临着食物种植方式的危机、环境危机、身体与精神危机。今天我们有机会在一定程度上解开这些难题。首先我想请教您，我们个体乃至全球性的精神疾病是如何与身体疾病联系在一起的？ Sadhguru: It is ironic that after a century-long fight against contagious diseases, which were caused to us by other organisms, we are now on “self-help.” Now we make ourselves sick – we do not need bacteria or viruses to do it for us. As you said, essentially, the origin of chronic ailments is within us. Why would our own body manufacture disease or an ailment for us? Every cell in the body is wired for health; every one of them is fighting for survival and health. 萨古鲁：讽刺的是，在与其他有害微生物引发的各种感染性疾病进行了长达一个世纪的斗争了以后，我们开始了“自助”模式。我们现在是自己让自己生病，而不需要通过细菌或病毒来引发疾病。正如你所说的，本质上，慢性病的根源在我们自己。为什么我们自己的身体会自己制造疾病或毛病？我们体内的每一个细胞都为健康而设，并为生存和健康而战。
Our body wants to be healthy. So why would it cause ill health? There are various dimensions to this. One which you have talked about a lot is definitely food. The affluent are eating too much. The poor are not eating the right way, or they do not have choices. Unfortunately, still a large segment of the population has no choice about what they eat because they live in poverty. And another segment of the world makes compulsive choices, because they are affluent. When we lived in poverty, we thought that when we get affluent, we will have choices. That is the idea of being affluent. But affluence has made people compulsive to eat certain things. 我们的身体想要健康，那它为什么又会引发疾病？这个问题有几个不同的维度。显然，其中一个原因是食物，这一点你们已经谈过很多了。富人吃的太多，穷人的饮食方式又不太对或没有选择。不幸的是，仍有很大一部分人口无法选择他们的食物，因为他们仍然生活在贫困中。而世界的另一部分人的饮食又是无意识，带有强迫性的，因为他们太富有了。当我们生活在贫困中时，我们会以为当我们变得富有时，我们就能选择。这才是富有的意义所在，但富有却使得人们对某些食物上瘾。 Dr. Hyman: Yeah. Well, a lot of food that we are eating is addictive. 海曼博士：是的 ，我们吃的很多食物会让人成瘾。 Sadhguru: So both ways, people are suffering. Whether you suffer hunger or you suffer indigestion, it needs to be addressed. As we address the requirements of those who live in poverty, we need to address the problem of excessive food. Another dimension of this is there is no education, no awareness about how to keep the human mechanism. We do not even have to think of how to create health. Because the body is made from within, it is structured to be healthy. Our business is just to not create ill health. 萨古鲁：所以这两种方式都让人们受苦。不管你是受苦于饥饿还是受苦于消化不良，我们都需要去解决。我们需要解决贫困人口的食物需求，也需要处理过度饮食的问题。另一原因是，关于如何维护这个人类机制，我们缺乏这方面的教育和觉知。其实我们都不需要去思考该如何创造健康，因为身体是从内在创造出来的，它本身已具有保持健康的机制。我们只要不去制造疾病就可以了。
There are many ways to look at this. One simple way to look at this is – suppose as I sit here, my hand starts popping around, punching me and poking me in the eye – then for sure you would consider that there is an ailment, at least in my hand, if not in my whole self. This is exactly what people’s minds are doing right now. It pops up, hops all over the place; it punches, scratches, and pokes them; it makes them cry, it makes them miserable. We have not done anything about it. People have not even looked at the basic user’s manual as to how to use their mind. It is a powerful instrument. And we know today that for every thought, for every emotion, for every reverberation that you create in your mind, the very chemistry of your body changes. 有很多方式来看待这个问题。其中一种很简单的方式就是，假如我坐在这儿，我的手开始动来动去，打我自己，戳我自己的眼睛，你肯定会认为这是一种病，即便不是全身，至少我的手肯定有问题——而目前，人们的头脑正是这样运作的。它会突然蹦出来，到处乱跑、攻击、抓挠、戳伤他们自己，让他们哭泣，让他们悲痛，而我们对此没有采取任何措施。对于如何运用自己的头脑，人们甚至连基础使用指南都没有看过，头脑是个很强大的工具。并且我们今天已经知道，你在头脑里制造的每一个想法、每一个情感和每一个振动，都会改变你身体的化学反应。 Dr. Hyman: We know that even your genes change with your thought. 海曼博士：我们知道，思维甚至能改变基因。 Sadhguru: One way of looking at it is that this human body is a chemical soup – either it is a great soup or a lousy soup. The soup becomes lousy either because the ingredients that you are using are not good, or the way you are cooking it is not good. You may have all the ingredients right, but still you can mess up the soup. Or because the ingredients are bad, you can mess up the soup. Poverty is a place where ingredients are bad, so the soup is messed up. Affluence is a place where the ingredients are good but the cook is bad, and again you have a lousy soup. 萨古鲁：看待这个问题的一个方式就是，人体是一锅化学汤－－这汤可能是很美的或是很糟的。汤不好，要么是你使用的原料不好，要么是你烹饪的方式不好。有可能你原料都用对了，但仍然把汤给搞砸了，或者，是原料不好，所以这锅汤就不好。贫困意味着原料不好，所以汤做坏了。富有则意味着原料都很好，但你厨艺糟糕，所以这锅汤就被糟蹋了。 Dr. Hyman: It is so powerful to talk about the body having this natural, original state of wellness, and that we shift away from that by our thoughts that change our form and by the food that alters our body. And so I would love to hear more about how we actually can use our thoughts and food to shift the form that we have to create a place where we can be more awake, where we can be more present, where we can be more connected to truth. 海曼博士：您说到身体原本就拥有健康的构造，而我们由于思维方式和食物而改变了身体，从而远离了这种状态，这点真是太可叹了。我想听您再谈一下，我们应该如何运用我们的头脑和食物让身体从目前的状态走出来，并将它建造成一个能让我们更有觉知、更具临在性、与真理联结更深的居所。 Sadhguru: When you talk about being connected to truth – truth is not an idea or a concept, it is not a philosophy that you read or make up in your mind. The truth about the body is you only gave it material, but the body was manufactured from within. You did not make it from outside. You did not get a sculptor to create this body. It was sculpted from within. Or in other words, the manufacturer of the body is inside. If the manufacturer of the body is inside, if there is a little repair job to be done, would you like to go to the manufacturer or the local mechanic? 萨古鲁：当你谈及与真理联结——真理并非一个理念或观念，它不是一种你可以读到或者在头脑中编造出来的哲学。身体的真理就是，你只需提供原料给它，但身体是从内在创造的。你不能从外部来制造它。你也不能让雕塑家来塑造这个身体，它是从内在塑造出来的。换句话说，身体的制造商在你的内在。如果身体的制造商在你之内，那么，如果需要进行一点修复工作，你是希望去制造商那里还是找当地的维修工？
If you have lost the ID of the manufacturer, you go to the local mechanic. There is an intelligence within you that can transform a piece of bread into the complex mechanism of the human body. If you have access to this intelligence or the source of creation within, health will be a natural consequence. It is not something that you have to run after. Health is a natural outcome of living in tune with everything within and around you. Health should be the last of concerns, but today it is one of the biggest concerns. It is not the biggest thing if you live in tune with this life that you are. A tree is not worrying about its health; a bird is not worrying about its health; a buffalo in the wild is not worrying about his health – he is just in tune with nature, and he is healthy. 如果你丢失了制造商的信息，你才会去找当地的维修工。在你之内，有一种智慧可以把一片面包转化成复杂的人体机制。如果你能连接上这个智慧，也就是内在的创造之源，健康就会自然到来。你不需要去追寻健康。当你与自己的内在以及周围的一切协调时，健康会自然发生。健康本应是人们最不需要去关心的事情，如今却成为人们关心的头等大事。如果你能与自己这个生命和谐共处，健康不会是头等大事。一棵树从来不会担心它的健康，一只鸟不会担心它的健康，一头野牛也不会担心自己的健康——它只是与自然协调一致，所以它就很健康。 Dr. Hyman: So how do we get back to that? We have come so far from that, we are so disconnected from ourselves, from how our minds work, from the food we eat, from even this idea that we can create health from within. If people are wondering, “How do I do this for myself?” How do they do that, in a practical way? 海曼博士：那么我们怎么才能回到这种状态？我们已经偏离如此远，我们已经完全脱离了自己；我们的头脑如何运作、我们所吃的食物、甚至是我们可以从内在创造健康的这个观念，我们都所知甚少。如果人们想知道，“我该做什么才能回到这种状态？”对此，有什么切实可行的方法吗？ Sadhguru: Now, we must understand this one thing. It is in pursuit of human wellbeing that we started commerce. So commerce should always serve human wellbeing. Right now, for the health of the economy, we are surrendering the health of the human being. Commercial forces are deciding what you should eat, what you should drink, and how you should live. It should never be so, but unfortunately we have chosen this model across the world today – that commercial forces determine the nature of human existence. Human consciousness should decide the nature of human existence, and commercial forces should serve that purpose. We have reversed this. This is the fundamental place where we have gone wrong. 萨古鲁：那么，有一点我们必须明白。我们因追求人类福祉而开始了商业，所以商业应始终服务于人类福祉。现在，为了让经济健康发展，我们在人类的健康问题上作出了很多牺牲。商业力量正决定着你应该吃什么，你应该喝什么或你应该怎样生活。绝不该是这样的。不幸的是，今天整个世界都在选择这种模式——商业力量正决定着人的生存状态。应该是人类的意识来决定他们的生存方式，而商业力量应该服务于这种目的。现在我们本末倒置了。这是我们犯下的根本错误。 Dr. Hyman: Yeah. How do we as individuals shift that and take back the power from commerce to actually make choices that will make them change? 海曼博士：是的。作为个人，我们应如何转变这一点，如何收回商业的力量，并采取实际行动来转变它们？ Sadhguru: I have three clear-cut steps to change this. The first thing is to campaign. People should become aware of the way they are being used by forces which were supposed to serve them. The next thing is education as to how to fix it in individual lives. The next thing is policy. These three things must happen, and in this order. It is very important. Everyone should realize what they are doing is wrong. If you want a global transformation, everyone should know the way they are eating, drinking, and the way they are compelled to do things in this world is wrong. Then education – what is the right thing to do? Then the policy. 萨古鲁：对此我有三个明确的步骤。首先是宣传，人们应该意识到，他们正被那些原本应服务他们的力量所利用。下一步是教育人们如何在生活中去修正这个问题。再下一步就是政策。这三点必须都实现，并且是以这个顺序。这非常重要。每个人都需要意识到他们目前的做法是不对的。如果你想实现全球性的转化，那么，每个人都应该知道，他们目前饮食的方式，以及在世界上这样被迫行事是不对的。然后是教育——什么是正确的行为？然后是政策。 Dr. Hyman: That is big steps. I think most people think that health is out there, while it is really within. They do not recognize they have the power to actually change the policy through changing their actions and choices now. 海曼博士：这些都是重大的举措。我想大多数人都以为健康取决于外在，而实际上它真的是来自内在。他们没有认知到，实际上他们现在就有力量通过改变行动和选择来改变政策。 Sadhguru: Whatever kind of social structures, individual situations, and world situations we are placed in, still individuals have choices. All of us live in the same society, but all of us may not be making the right choices. What we consume, how we sit and stand – this is definitely our choice. It is just that most people are willing to go along with the mass hysteria. 萨古鲁：不管我们身处何种社会结构，个人处境或世界状况中，每个个体仍然是有选择余地的。我们所有人都生活在同一个社会中，但并非所有人都做出了正确的选择。我们该吃什么，我们如何坐，如何站——这些完全是我们可以选择的。只是大多数人都愿意盲目追随潮流。 Dr. Hyman: Yeah, I think the problems are global, but what strikes me is that the solutions are really local. They are as local as our thoughts. They are as local as what we put on our fork. And with those simple choices we can begin to shift this. 海曼博士：是的，我认为问题是全球性的，但让我惊叹的是，解决方案是个体性的，就如每个人的念头以及刀叉下的食物一样是个人化的选择。而我们只要进行这些简单的选择就可以开始转变这个问题。 Sadhguru: That is why these are two different affairs. If you want to change your health situation, there is one way. If you are interested in changing the global health, that is a different way. 萨古鲁：这也是为什么说这是两回事。如果你想改变自己的健康状况，有一种方法。如果你想改变全球的健康问题，又有另一种方法。 Dr. Hyman: How do you see those as different? In my view, the more individuals make choices for themselves, what is good for them is good for the planet; what is good for their body is good for the earth. 海曼博士：您为何将它们看成两回事呢？在我看来，越多人做出有利于自己的选择，这种选择也都是有利于地球的。有利于他们的身体的，也会有益于地球。 Sadhguru: Not every individual is capable of making the right choices. They go by what the majority does. Unless health becomes a mass movement, there will be no global health. But if you as an individual want to create health for yourself, that is not a big deal – you can do this. There is a little bit of poison that you have to breathe and drink, that is unavoidable, but whatever poison you are generating from within, you can stop it instantaneously if you wish. 萨古鲁：不是所有的个人都有能力做正确的选择。人们都会随大众。除非健康成为一个大规模的运动，否则就不会有全球性的健康。但是，作为个人，如果你想为自己创造健康，这就不是什么大事——你可以做到。你所呼吸的空气以及喝入的水中有一点毒素，这是难以避免的，但是从你体内产生的毒素，如的果你愿意，你现在就可以停止。
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