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本文章刊登在CHINA DAILY-艾问专栏 毕马威KPMG去年公布的调研报告显示，阿里巴巴超越Facebook、亚马逊、谷歌等美国科技企业，成为全球最具颠覆能力科技企业。在被调研的800位美国企业高管中，阿里巴巴是这些美国公司的高管们最为担心将来会可能颠覆他们的公司。 在他们眼中，阿里巴巴的颠覆能力简单来说就是八个字：勇于创新、敢于尝试。 From their perspectives, Alibaba’s ability tobring about fundamental changes is simply demonstrated by: the courage toinnovate and attempt. 电商、移动支付、社交、云计算、大文娱、人工智能等等，阿里有过太多的尝试。作为一家市值近5000亿美元的互联网科技公司，阿里无疑是过去二十年全球最成功的公司之一，但阿里成功的路上也曾踏进过试错的泥沼，软件互联平台、天天动听、淘日本、来往、云博客... 都是阿里尝试过但并不成功的产品。 E-commerce, mobile payments, social networking,cloud computing, great entertainment, AI, etc., were all among Alibaba’scountless investment attempts. As an Internet technology company with a marketvalue of nearly USD 500 billion, Alibaba is undoubtedly one of the mostsuccessful companies in the world in the past two decades. However, Alibaba hasalso gone through trial and error on the road to success. Softwareinterconnection platform, TTPOD, TaoJapan.com, Laiwang, cloud blogs and soforth, are all the products that Alibaba tried promoting but failed. 马云说，阿里巴巴成立至今，经历了1900次以上的失败，才有今天。所有的失败是最佳的营养，你要怎么看到和跨过失败是关键。 不怕败，怕败得不可取；想赢，要赢的有道。 Don’t be afraid of failure; be afraid of nolesson learned from failures. If you wish to win, you should come up with away. 阿里巴巴原CEO卫哲曾对艾问表示，马云当年把他从百安居挖到阿里时有过一次对话让他印象深刻： Alibaba's former CEO Zhe Wei told Gloria Aiabout a conversation he had with Jack Ma when Jack intended to poach him fromB&Q: 卫哲：阿里巴巴会从几千人发展到几万人，那我把从几千人到几万人的经验带来。 马云：你千万别把经验带来，你把教训带来，从几千人到几万人犯过什么错误，只要你把这些跟我们团队讲清楚，我们不犯同样的错误，我们哪怕犯一些创新的错误，我们也成功。 Jack Ma: You must never contribute your experience but lessons.If you could lead our team to avoid making the same mistakes previously madefrom expanding from thousands to tens of thousands, even if we make somemistakes on innovation, we will succeed. 本期《艾问·顶级人物》，对话阿里巴巴集团副总裁刘松，学阿里的失败与成功。 In this issue of "iAsk·Top Leaders",Gloria Ai interviewed Song Liu, Vice President of Alibaba, learning from thefailure and success of the company. 可取的失败： Desirable failure: 一个公司的强大在于Innovation和Resilience The strength of a companylies in Innovation and Resilience 艾诚：我记得马云先生讲过一句很幽默的话，叫“乱七八糟的生机勃勃”，在您看来，阿里巴巴走过的这些更迭，哪些是行得通的，哪些是行不通的？ Gloria Ai: I remember that Mr. Jack Ma had a very humorous comment, i.e. "disorderly vibrant". In your opinion, among the trials and changes Alibaba has gone through, which ones worked out well and which ones did not? 刘松：其实很多东西都没有行得通，包括我们最近最成功的一个产品“钉钉”，它的前身叫“来往”，就没有成功。我想一个公司最强大的地方，是innovation和resilience，也就是创新和强健力。一家公司最重要的不在于它是不是经常做错事情，而在于他在同一个领域做错那一次后，能不能下一次就成功，这是非常关键的能力。你的系统能不能让你错一次就学到所有的教训，在下一次经历的时候，能够一下子爬起来。所以阿里其实犯的错比别人多得多。 Song Liu: In fact, many things did not work out well, including one of our most successful products recently, called “Ding Talk”, which is evolved from “Laiwang” that was a failure. I think the biggest strength in a company lies in innovation and resilience. The most important thing about a company is not whether it makes mistakes frequently, but whether it can succeed in the same field next time after making a mistake. This is a very crucial ability. It depends on whether the system enables you to gain all the lessons after making one mistake and rise from the failure next time. So Alibaba actually has made more mistakes than others. 艾诚：犯完错之后纠错并且让创新落地，这样一套强大系统的本质是什么？ Gloria Ai: Correct mistakes afterwards and materialize innovations. What’s the nature of such a powerful system? 刘松：本质我想有三个，第一个就是一以贯之的平台思维，这个就是我们思考说不仅仅是我做一个应用，解决一个问题，我是要解决一类大问题，这是第一个。第二个就是生态的思维，你要想到在这样的一个大的问题空间里面，哪些人能跟你一起解决那个问题，你的分工边界是什么？ 把它规划出来。第三点是组织，之所以一个组织能够在一件事情摔倒，第二次的时候就能爬起来，能成功，其实是跟组织力是有很大的关系。 Song Liu: There’re three elements in essence in my opinion. Firstly, consistent platform thinking. It means that when we try to build a product or solve an issue, we need to solve it from the macro perspective. Secondly, ecosystem mentality. You need to think about who can work with you to solve the issue and what the boundaries are to assign responsibilities under such a major issue. You need to make plans. Thirdly, organizational capability. The reason why an organization would make mistakes once and rise up next time is closely related to the organizational capability. 艾诚：阿里不断发展和试错的过程中，初心有动摇过吗？ Gloria Ai: During the process of continuous development, trial and error, has Alibaba ever deviated from its initial motivation? 刘松：从99年阿里巴巴创立开始，马云的初心其实一直没变，让天下没有难做的生意。他永远都相信互联网能够补足中国在过去的经济时代里面缺的这些借助互联网的商品对接、服务，包括数字化，包括他相信信用，在2005年的时候他就觉得中国应该建立一套信用体系，而且是基于互联网和数据的，后来就有了支付宝和芝麻的信用。 Song Liu: Since the founding of Alibaba in 1999, Jack Ma’s initial motivation has not changed. There is no difficult business. He always believes that the Internet can compensate the need for matching commercial goods and services, as well as digitalization that rely on the Internet, which China lacked in the past economic era. He puts faith in credibility, too. Back in 2005, he envisioned that there should be a credibility system in China based on the Internet and data, which led to the emergence of Alipay and Sesame Credit. 所以我想他其实当时从前面十年很大程度上相信的是网络效应，相信网络会形成一个永不落幕的广交会。 So I think he actually believed in the network effect in the past ten years. He viewed the network as the Canton Fair that never closes. 刘松谈到，“过去10年是移动互联网时代，互联网连接的是人和商品。再往下10年，互联网会与物理世界进一步融合，大数据、人工智能、物联网等新的技术会渗透到产业升级的进程中去，带来比消费互联网要大100倍的机会。” Song Liu said: "The past 10 years have been the era of the mobile Internet, which connected people and goods. In the coming decade, the Internet will be further integrated with the physical world. New technologies such as big data, AI, and the Internet of Things will penetrate the process of industrial upgrading, which will bring about 100 times more opportunities than the consumption Internet." 从去年开始，“AIoT”越来越多的出现在我们的视野中。在业界看来，随着人工智能技术的导入，物联网终端设备将升级为各种AIoT智慧设备，我们的生活也将从“万物互联”走向“万物智能”。 Since last year, "AIoT" has appeared more frequently in our life. In the industry's view, with the introduction of the AI technology, IoT terminal equipment will be upgraded to various AIoT smart devices, and our life will move from “Everything Connected” to “Everything Smart”. 对于技术业态的变迁，刘松用一个词总结了未来的技术新常态，“ AIoT as a Service”。借助数据这种介质，AIoT作为一种基础性的服务，可以服务各行各业；未来的创新主体，要么构建这种服务，要么运用这种服务垂直行业。 As for the change of technological format, Song Liu summarized the new technical normality of the future as "AIoT as a Service". With the medium of data, AioT can serve all walks of life as a fundamental service; future innovation entities will either develop such service or utilize this to serve vertical markets. 新的尝试： New attempt: 阿里把未来压在了AIoT？ Alibaba betting on the futureof AIoT? 艾诚：在阿里的布局中我捕捉到一个关键词叫做AIoT，IoT我们知道是物联网的意思，Internet of Things，但把AI人工智能融合在一起，是否也意味着阿里对未来的判断就是AIoT？ Gloria Ai: In Alibaba’s business blueprint, I noticed a key word “AIoT”. We know IoT stands for Internet of Things, but if we combine it with AI, does that mean Alibaba believes that AIoT will lead the trend in the future? 刘松：我觉得狭义地讲，这两个是最关键的技术。尤其当一个互联网公司已有的业态是一个线上的闭环，拥有几亿消费者的数据，通过云计算分析和预测他们的行为，使用类似App的媒介给他们带来服务，但是今天你到了工厂，到了城市，到了农业，甚至到了海上的钻井平台，你怎么能够知道那些流动中的石油，它到底是怎么流向呢？你怎么能够知道城市里面每一个瞬间多少辆车经过了红绿灯？ 你怎么知道工厂里面到底化学反应到了什么程度呢？ Song Liu: I think from a micro perspective, these two are the most critical technologies. Especially when an Internet company's existing business is formed as an online closed loop, with data of hundreds of millions of consumers, we can analyze and predict their behaviors through cloud computing and serve them through an app-like medium. However, imagine if you visit a factory, a city, a village, or even an offshore drilling rig, how would you know the flow of oil underneath, how many cars pass by traffic lights at a certain moment in a city, or the extent of chemical reactions in a factory? IoT是一个采集器神经系统，它能够在物理世界里面把数据拉出来上传，人工智能结合数据，产生了生产性知识的一个过程。到了2018年，业界的偏技术类人士都开始把AIoT混合在一起，因为这两样东西是一代解决物理问题的双胞胎。 IoT is a collector neural system that extracts data and uploads it in the physical world. AI combined with data generates a process of productive knowledge. By 2018, the technology-oriented professionals in the industry had begun to combine AI and IoT into AIoT, because these two are like a generation of twins to solve physical problems. 艾诚：阿里巴巴集团会在AIoT这样的一个未来方向上做什么样的布局？ Gloria Ai: What kind of businessplan will Alibaba make for the future of AIoT? 刘松：从2014年以来，我们其实从海外招募的人工智能或IoT物联网以及相应的芯片开发的海归科学家们已经超过数百名，是国内最多的。所以大家只要搜达摩院这三个字，已经能够看到赫赫有名的教授在列。 Song Liu: Since 2014, we haverecruited hundreds of scientists from overseas specialized in AI, or IoT andits related circuit development. The number of scientists working for us is thehighest domestically. If you search DAMO Academy online, you can see renownedprofessors on the list. 最近的布局是我们在云栖大会发布了AI芯片，物联网的芯片，就是用在未来的城市，家电，还有智能网联汽车这些领域。那么在两三年的过程里面，人工智能和IoT领域都在达摩院有研发体系，也都单独成立了专门的开发团队，人工智能不能够只从实验室开始，你一开始就要把科学家的新技术用在农业，用在工业，用在城市里面。这是中国最大的一个优势，从美国回来的数据科学家也好，人工智能科学家也好，都看到中国拥有一个巨大的场景需求。从技术的角度来看，越有空间，它就越让人有兴奋感。 The most recent businessplan is that we released the AI chips and IoT chips at the Computing Conference.The chips will be used in future cities, home appliances, intelligent connectedvehicles and so on. In the past two to three years, we have established R&Dsystems and teams for AI and IoT respectively. AI can’t just be applied inlabs. You need to utilize the new technologies developed by scientists inagriculture, industries and cities. This is the biggest advantage Chinapossesses, where data scientists and AI scientists back from America have allwitnessed the huge real-world demand in China. From the perspective of thetechnology, the more room it has, the more exciting it gets. 尽管大家对于阿里是否依然是未来十年最成功的互联网科技公司存在疑问，但阿里提供给我们的“成功与失败“经验已经弥足珍贵。艾问，为你而问。 Althougheveryone has doubts over whether Alibaba will still be the most successfulInternet technology company in the next decade, the lessons of “success andfailure” that Alibaba has shared with us are invaluable. iAsk, just for you. END
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