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记者： You have written, at one time and another some sentences which have surprised me a little, about death. Now, in particular I remember you said that death is psychologically just as important as birth and like it it’s an integral part of life. But surely it can’t like birth if it’s an end, can it? 你在不同场合写过的一些关于死亡的观点让我有点惊讶，这会儿，我特别记得你曾经说过，在心理学意义上，死亡与出生是同等重要的，这就好像说，死亡是生命不可或缺的一部分。但是，很显然，如果死亡是一种终结的话，它就不可能跟出生是一样的。对吗？ 荣格：Yes, if it’s an end, and there we are not quite certain about this end because you know there are these peculiar faculties of the psyche that it isn’t entirely confined to space and time. You can have dreams or visions of the future, you can see around corners and such things. Only ignorance denies these facts, you know, it’s quite evident that they do exist, and have existed always. Now these facts show that the psyche, in part at least is not dependent upon these confinements. And then what? When the psyche is not under that obligation to live in time and space alone, and obviously it doesn’t, then to that extent the psyche is not subjected to those and that means a practical continuation of life, of a sort of psychical existence beyond time and space. 是的，如果它是一种终结，（自然就如你所言了），但是我们对这个所谓的“终结”也还不是非常确定，因为你知道，心灵有很多独特的能力，它并不会完全受到空间和时间的限制，你可以在睡梦或幻象里预见未来，你能（在心灵里）看遍任何角落，还有很多类似的事情，除非你刻意忽略这类事实，否则就无法否认它，你知道，有相当多的证据证明此类情况确实存在，自古至今。那么这些事实说明，心灵并不会受到（空间和时间的）约束，至少心灵的一部分并不受这些约束。那将如何呢？当心灵不是仅仅存在于时间和空间之内，显然它肯定不是， 在一定程度上讲，心灵并不受到这些法则的约束，那意味着在超越时间和空间之外某处，有某种心灵层面的存在，它是生命的延续。 记者：Do you yourself believe that death is probably the end or do you believe that…… 仅就您本人而言，你相信死亡是生命的尽头吗，亦或者您相信它…… 荣格：Well I can’t say. You see, the word belief is a difficult thing for me. I don’t believe. I must have a reason for a certain hypothesis. Either I know a thing, and then I know it. I don’t need to believe it. I don’t allow myself, for instance, to believe a thing just for the sake of believing it. I can’t believe it. But when there are sufficient reasons for a certain hypothesis I shall accept, this is naturally. I should say, ”We had to reckon with the possibility of so and so”, you know. 哦，我不能那么说。你知道，“相信”这个词对我来说有点困难。我不能“相信”，我认为猜想必须基于一定的根据，如果我知道一件事，那么我就是“知道”，而不需要“相信”它。例如，我不会允许我自己仅仅为了要相信一件事而去相信它。我不能相信它，但是当一个猜想已经有了相当充分的证据，我自然就可以接受它。你看，那时我就可以说：“我们不得不承认如此这般的情况是有可能出现的”。 记者：Well now, you’ve told us that we should regard death as being a goal and that to shrink away from it is to evade life and make life purposeless. What advice would you give to people in their later life to enable them to do this, when most of them must in fact believe that death is the end of everything? 那么，您现在已经告诉我们应该将死亡视为生命的目标，在死亡面前畏缩逃避就是逃避生命，并使生命变得漫无目的。那么您对人们的晚年生活有何建议，能够帮助他们实践这种态度，毕竟事实上，他们中的大多数人都相信死亡是一切的尽头。 荣格：Well, you see, I have treated many old people and it’s quite interesting to watch what the unconscious is doing with the face that it is apparently threatened with a complete end. It disregards it. Life behaves as if it were going on, and so I think it is better for an old person to live on to look forward to the next day as if he had to spend centuries, and then he lives properly. But when he is afraid, when doesn’t look forward, he looks back, he petrifies, he gets stiff, and he dies before his time. But when he’s living and looking forward to the great adventure that is ahead, then he lives, and that is about what the unconscious is intending to do. Of course, it’s quite obvious that we are all going to die and this is the sad finale of everything, but nevertheless, there is something in us that doesn’t believe it apparently. But this is merely a fact, a psychological fact. It doesn’t mean to me that proves something. It simply is so. For instance, I may not know why we need salt, but we prefer to eat salt because we feel better. And so when you think in a certain way you may feel considerably better and I think if you think along the lines of nature, then you think properly. 嗯，你知道我给很多老年人做过心理治疗，那相当有趣，他们显然应该被“彻底的终结”这一事实恐吓到，但潜意识对此是如何应对的呢？它会忽略这件事，仿佛生活将一直继续下去。所以我想对老人们来说，最好就那样生活下去，憧憬着每一个新的一天，仿佛自己还有几百年的光阴，那样他可以生活得非常好。但是，如果老年人害怕死亡，不肯向前看，他只好回忆，他思维僵化，拘谨呆板，那么他的寿命就会缩短。但是，如果他去生活，去探索前路上未知的巨大冒险，那么他将生存，而且这就是潜意识想要我们做的。当然，很显然人终有一死，这对一切来说都是一个悲伤的结局，但是，无论如何，我们内在的某个部分显然并不相信这一点。这确实是一个事实，一个心理意义上的事实，我不是说这个事实能证明什么,但事实确乎如此。例如，我可能不知道我们为什么需要盐，但是我们就是喜欢吃盐，因为那样我们感觉很好。所以如果你朝着一个让你感觉不错的方向去，我认为如果你朝着自然规律去想，那么你的思考方式就对了。 |
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